2011年4月30日星期六

王力雄:独立也可以谈



王力雄:独立也可以谈

当媒体采访我为何要推动中国网民与达赖喇嘛的对话时,我回答因为统治者垄断的交流扭曲真相,达赖喇嘛说了多年不追求独立,几乎全世界都知道,当局却始终告诉中国民众达赖喇嘛要分裂中国,追求西藏独立。这的确是我推动对话的目的之一,达赖喇嘛也认为是重要的。他在年初进行的视频对话中回顾:“六四天安门事件发生之后有一年,我在美国哈佛大学与部分中国知识分子会面,详细介绍了我的中间道路立场。当时,与会的中国朋友几乎异口同声说,如果中国民众有机会了解你的真实想法,那么可以肯定,中国人民会支持达赖喇嘛。”

不过,我觉得这不应该是对话的全部目的。对话是交流,为的是了解对方的各种想法,而不是只了解其中一种想法,尤其不是仅为了解自己愿意接受的想法。如一些中国海外流亡人士,虽然标榜追求民主,在跟流亡藏人对话时却设定前提条件,要求藏人不得提独立,不得反对中国人等,首先已经不是民主。民主必须允许他人畅所欲言。邓小平对西藏说的“除了独立什么都可以谈”是专制权力的态度,而和流亡藏人处境一样的中国海外流亡者,自己也是有家不能回,若以为自己有高于藏人的权力,则是一种可笑的错位。

其次,当我们倾听对方的不同意见,不应该仅是耐着性子的表达姿态,而是要真心地听取对方,了解和自己不一样的观点,思考他们为什么会那样想,合理性在哪里。只有让人家畅快地说出来,自己认真地听进去,才能做到相互理解,最后找到共同点。所以,作为民间人士,汉人和藏人的对话中,应该什么都可以谈,包括独立也可以谈。

我相信达赖喇嘛的判断,当中国民众了解中间道路后,很多人会支持。但那还不等于问题就解决了,因为在达赖喇嘛之外,很多藏人是追求西藏独立的。同雍容大度、理性智慧的达赖喇嘛对话,无疑会有良好的气氛,然而当双方民间进行群体对话时,一定会遇到很多冲突的观点,言语和态度也不一定总是保持理性,如果缺乏开放的心态和努力理解对方的谦虚,很容易渐行渐远,那时对话的效果甚至可能比不对话还糟。

2011-2-2

(本文为RFA藏语节目,转载请注明。

Independence Can Also Be Talked About

By Wang Lixiong

When I am asked in interviews by the media why I keep pushing for dialogues between the Dalai Lama and Chinese netizens, I cite the government's censorship and distorting the truth。For so many years the Dalai Lama has been repeatedly admitting that he doesn’t pursue independence, the entire world knows, but the administration still keeps telling people the Dalai Lama splits China and demands independence. This is one of the main factors making me strive for the dialogue which the Dalai Lama too considers very important. While having a video chat at the beginning of the year, he remembered, “One year after the June 4th incident, I met several Chinese intellectuals in Harward University and explained them about my Middle Way approach. All the Chinese attendants there said that Chinese people would surely support me if they have a chance to know my views."

However, I don’t think this is the entire objective of having dialogues. Dialogues are interactions whose purpose is to know each others’ different thoughts but not only one thought, especially not the acceptable one. Many Chinese in exile overseas too, though said to pursue democracy, but when they come in dialogues with Tibetan refugees, they set preconditions of not to talk about Tibetan independence and not to oppose the Chinese people etc, which are not democratic in the first place. Democracy permits people to express whatever opinions they have. What Deng Xiaoping said of Tibet "anything can be talked about except independence" is an authoritarian attitude. Bing in the same situation of not being able to go home like the Tibetan refugees, yet regarding ourselves superior to Tibetans is a laughable mistake.

Secondly, when we listen to others' opinions, we should not listen to them with patience but with sincerity, to know where their opinions are different from ours, analyze why they are different and to see if they are legitimate. People can understand each other and consensus can be reached only when everybody can speak out without hesitation and can listen with sincerity. So, being common people, during dialogues between Tibetans and Chinese, everything can be talked about, including independence.

I believe the Dalai Lama’s judgment that many Chinese people would support him when they come to understand his views. But that does not solve the problem as besides the Dalai Lama, there are so many Tibetans seeking Tibetan independence. The Dalai Lama being generous, liberal and rational would undoubtedly develop a better atmosphere for the dialogue. But group dialogues among the general public would encounter numerous conflicting views leading to chaos that results difficulty maintaining speech and attitudes rational. In the absence of open-mindedness and lacking spirit to understand other’s sincerity, dialogues could have the reverse effect of solving the problem and thus the effect of dialogue would possibly be worse than having no dialogues at all.

(由Ogyen翻译。)


16 条评论:

  1. 我在文化大革命中,在毛主席语录再版时,当我读到再版前言时,第一句我记得是“毛泽东思想是马克思列宁主义的最高顶峰”我忍不住说这句话不对。当时,我的好朋友立刻问我,怎么不对。我立刻回答,因为马克思主义发展到列宁主义,而列宁主义发展到毛泽东主义,假如,毛泽东是顶峰的话,毛泽东主义就不发展了。当时我觉得我的观点是非常正确的。但是,我的朋友提醒我,这是林副主席的再版前言时。我傻了,因为,我很有可能为这句话要坐牢的。
    今天从新考虑这句话时,我有感觉到,林彪了不起了。因为林彪已经言中了。毛泽东之后,在中国或者是在当今世界上,马克思列宁主义就没有发展了。毛泽东的思想也就没有发展了。真的是“顶峰”了。
    从这句话我想到,王力雄先生为什么说“西藏独立”作为一个话题进行讨论是一个多么有意义的事情。从来都不可能因为一个人或几个人说了什么而改变历史,就是暂时有什么改变,要不了多久又回到历史运转的正确轨道上的。“中间道路”和“西藏独立”一样都是实实在在从在的问题。要走“中间道路”还是要走“西藏独立”的道路。从来都不是单一一方所能够决定的,很多方面要看中国政府在做什么而决定的。假如,西藏是铁桶,里三层外三层的围起来。那里面的人当然就想冲出来不是吗?假如,中国政府受不了几句言语而将藏人监禁在铁桶里,那么“西藏独立”的话题自然而然是正确的选择,这时候没有一个名族是懦弱的。假如,在藏区,西藏的语言,文化,有它应有的社会地位和官方的位置,尊重西藏人民的感情,放达赖喇嘛回家去的话。那么,人们自然而然的走“中间道路”。中国和西藏那一方也不会无缘无故的执行一个双方都不愿意的道路。有时候强硬是不可采取的。尤其是对中国政府称之为中国人的藏人采取军事行动。永远是下三滥的伎俩。把一个裤子都不穿大喇嘛庙围得水泄不通,不应该是中国这样一个自称为法治国家的政府之所为。
    理智从来都是双方的。不可能对一个疯子讲理智。中国政府,既不讲“中间道路”也不允许讲“西藏独立”。那么,有没有解决的办法?
    我觉得西藏独立仍然是西藏人追求的主流方向。因为,中国方面没有任何诚意。

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  2. 吴凡主持的中国过渡政府的王八逻辑:'诚恳建议西藏流亡政府更名为为诸如“中国西藏流亡(过渡)政府”.(2011/04/30)。
    鸠琼蒙古

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  3. 哪里钻出来的中国过渡政府?!可笑之至的“诚恳建议”!不但是王八逻辑,还是混账逻辑!

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  4. 所以藏人(以及新任的噶伦赤巴)应要有清醒的认识,有些根本问题与是不是中共当政无关!

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  5. 关于“诚恳建议....中国西藏过渡....”,消息来源可靠吗? 能否提供连接?我不太相信中国过渡政府会讲这样的话。

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  6. 100次也=0

    独立,是图伯特的命运。Bod Rangzen!

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  7. 呵呵,我懒得转这个所谓的“中国过渡政府”的言论,你自己可以看看http://www.kanzhongguo.com/node/402032

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  8. 看了,的确挺诚恳的。

    达兰萨拉现在的情况是:只要是从大陆或者台湾来的民运人士,都会当成座上客,神仙,解决图伯特问题的关键,懂中文的不懂中文的一窝蜂地跑去采访和谈话。 

    我对所谓的民运人士的区分比较黑白分明:

    支持图伯特独立的=朋友=真民运人士,如曹长青等。

    同情“西藏”,但不支持独立的=共产党=间接的,更危险的敌人=伪民主人士。

    共产党是完全不要脸,没什么多说的。没人指望一个流氓组成的政党会做出什么好事。 可有些民运人士即要当“那个”,又想立牌坊,自身难保,却还死命维护“统一”,拐着弯儿地殖民侵略。 

    有些台湾人恨中共入骨,但“中华情结”却比共产党还厉害,我见过一个胶水瓶,是台湾制造,瓶盖上是一个“中华民国地图”,看着很像中国的公鸡状地图,但怎么看那只公鸡都好像肥了许多,最后终于发现,台湾版的公鸡连外蒙古都给“意”吞了下去,不肥才怪呢!

    同情请收起来,图伯特是被中共以武力占领的实情,请大声讲出来!

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  9. 楼上说的是实情,同感!

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  10. 请看:中国过渡政府的混账逻辑http://dayaarmongol.ning.com/
    情系图伯特

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  11. 西藏独立与否,完全要看共产党的脸色行事。西藏人也毫无例外的顺着世界各国号着中国人的脉搏。基本上是被他们牵着流亡藏人的鼻子。不是直接的而是被各国政客,顾忌各自的利益,不断地企图操控藏人,这是显而易见的。藏人也懂得这一点。一旦风吹草动这些人一定会出卖西藏的利益。除了各国民众对西藏的支持是真的之外,基本上很多国家的政府是各顾各。
    民主人士的忠言,也要一分为二,不是所有的人接近藏人都是对藏人示好。也有心怀各自的目的。假如,西藏独立符合西藏人的现实利益,假如达赖喇嘛首先号召民间藏汉对话,或提出中间道路的话。支持西藏独立的人士不太多,及就是西藏独立多么对西藏人有利。就像“你有表达你自己思想的权利,尽管我不同意你的观点”之类的话都不敢说,我觉得争取西藏独立只是藏人自己的权力,任何一个民族都有自己管理自己的权力,及就是共产党员的藏人,他也有管理西藏的权利,当然这是不可能的。西藏人及就是党员也不可能当西藏的党委书记。共产党认为藏人及就是优秀的共产党员也难于胜任党委书记之职。共产党假如有达赖喇嘛的一般胸怀,把世代喇嘛掌权的流亡西藏政府交给一个俗人。共产党敢把西藏党委书记交给藏人吗?那是不可能的哦。

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  12. 阿佳唯色啦,我把王力雄的这篇文章给译成了英文,供给更多读者:

    Independence Can Also Be Talked About

    Wang Lixiong

    When I am asked in interviews by the media why I keep pushing for dialogues between the Dalai Lama and Chinese netizens, I cite the government's censorship and distorting the truth。For so many years the Dalai Lama has been repeatedly admitting that he doesn’t pursue independence, the entire world knows, but the administration still keeps telling people the Dalai Lama splits China and demands independence. This is one of the main factors making me strive for the dialogue which the Dalai Lama too considers very important. While having a video chat at the beginning of the year, he remembered, “One year after the June 4th incident, I met several Chinese intellectuals in Harward University and explained them about my Middle Way approach. All the Chinese attendants there said that Chinese people would surely support me if they have a chance to know my views."

    However, I don’t think this is the entire objective of having dialogues. Dialogues are interactions whose purpose is to know each others’ different thoughts but not only one thought, especially not the acceptable one. Many Chinese in exile overseas too, though said to pursue democracy, but when they come in dialogues with Tibetan refugees, they set preconditions of not to talk about Tibetan independence and not to oppose the Chinese people etc, which are not democratic in the first place. Democracy permits people to express whatever opinions they have. What Deng Xiaoping said of Tibet "anything can be talked about except independence" is an authoritarian attitude. Bing in the same situation of not being able to go home like the Tibetan refugees, yet regarding ourselves superior to Tibetans is a laughable mistake.

    Secondly, when we listen to others' opinions, we should not listen to them with patience but with sincerity, to know where their opinions are different from ours, analyze why they are different and to see if they are legitimate. People can understand each other and consensus can be reached only when everybody can speak out without hesitation and can listen with sincerity. So, being common people, during dialogues between Tibetans and Chinese, everything can be talked about, including independence.

    I believe the Dalai Lama’s judgment that many Chinese people would support him when they come to understand his views. But that does not solve the problem as besides the Dalai Lama, there are so many Tibetans seeking Tibetan independence. The Dalai Lama being generous, liberal and rational would undoubtedly develop a better atmosphere for the dialogue. But group dialogues among the general public would encounter numerous conflicting views leading to chaos that results difficulty maintaining speech and attitudes rational. In the absence of open-mindedness and lacking spirit to understand other’s sincerity, dialogues could have the reverse effect of solving the problem and thus the effect of dialogue would possibly be worse than having no dialogues at all.

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  13. 感谢Ogyen的翻译。我重又贴在帖子里了,也发在Facebook上了。握手!

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  14. 在台湾,有大中华癖的还真不少,搜寻了一下“中华民国地图”,全都是肥公鸡状的。

    http://www.geo.ntnu.edu.tw/old%20980202/teacher/markwu/product/atlaschina/Atlaschi.htm

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  15. 估计当年图伯特人就算是落入国民党的手里,情况也不会比现在好到哪里去,国民共产,半斤八两,都TM不怎么要脸皮。

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