一段近12分钟的视频：是2009年11月1日，我对维吾尔学者伊力哈木·土赫提的采访片段。2014年3月15日由独立电影人王我整理剪辑，当时距伊力哈木被捕两个月。而今天，2014年9月17日，伊力哈木被乌鲁木齐市中级人民法院开庭受审，正是此刻。。。
以下是视频字幕。
对维吾尔学者伊力哈木的采访（节选）
Interview With Uyghur Scholar Ilham Tohti (Excerpt)
在线观看 watch online: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eliGfRRM3KM
采访时间：2009年11月1日
November 1, 2009
采访者：藏族女作家 唯色
Interviewer: Tibetan writer Tsering Woeser
王我整理剪辑于2014年3月15日
Edited by Wang Wo, March 15, 2014
Translated by John Kennedy
Proofread by Eva Pils
唯色：我想问你，就是跟你个人有关系
I’d like to ask a personal question about you
从“维吾尔在线”上也看到
It is clear – and that’s also something that’s apparent on Uyghur Online
就是你的影响力是相当大的，在维吾尔人当中
That you are very influential among Uyghurs
被维吾尔人誉为是维吾尔人的良心
Who see you as the conscience of the Uyghur people
但是呢，从你个人的利益上来看的话
So, I want to ask about how you’ve fared personally
这几年，其实是跌宕起伏
With the ups and downs these past few years
你曾被称为是北京城里最富有的维吾尔人
A few years ago you were one of the wealthiest Uyghurs in Beijing
现在有这种说法说是最贫穷的维吾尔人之一
But now it’s said you’re one of the poorest
这样大的起落，对于一个人来说...
That’s such a dramatic rise and fall for someone / a person to go through
这是在经济上，另外从个人的政治上，安全上
Both financially, but also politically and in terms of your safety
你现在都面临特别危险的状况
Now that you’re in such a precarious situation
你是怎么看待这些问题的？
What do you make of it all?
伊力哈木：我觉得应该面对这些问题
I think these problems just need to be / faced?
因为你应该知道，你是这样的理念，是这样的人
As you well know, if you’re that sort of person, with ideals like that,
你应该能想到的
You can easily imagine… [the consequences]
但是原来没有想那么复杂
But initially, I didn’t give so much thought to it
我当时知道我肯定会遇到一些挫折
I knew at the outset I’d face certain setbacks
甚至想过可能把我判刑，10年、20年
Maybe even being put in jail for 10 or 20 years
我认为我有承受力的，因为我刚开始有这个准备
I thought, I can handle that, I’ve always been prepared for that
唯色：是什么时候有这个准备？
When did you decide you were ready?
伊力哈木：其实网站开设初期，我当时有一种面对
When I initiated the website, actually, that was eye-opening / that’s when I started running into problems
虽然问题想的没那么严重
Although it wasn’t as bad as I imagined
但越来越……08年有过
But as time went on, like in 2008
唯色：去年？
Last year
伊力哈木：对，08年也有过
Yes, last year
今年这种预期更强烈
But there was a stronger sense this year
然后7·5的时候居然编出来...
Then the 5 July [2009] riots happened [in Urumqi]
虽然我知道他的指控是没有道理的
And then came accusations, which I knew were false
但是呢，我就有一种更糟糕的心理准备
But it just made me all the more prepared / prepared for even worse consequences
但是到目前为止，虽然经历了很多压力、很多磨难
Now, with all I’ve been through, all the suffering
包括我的家庭，包括新疆的亲人、朋友
Including that of my family and of relatives and friends in Xinjiang ?
已经在生活层面受到影响了
It’s begun to affect their lives
现在我们从这个月开始就靠2100块钱（工资）吧
Starting this month we have to get by on just 2,100 yuan RMB (salary) a month
所以在家里我们有标准
So we’ve made some changes at home
比如说这一个礼拜，家里就没有用肉那些东西
Last week, for example, we cut meat from our diet
光有鸡蛋，就保证孩子吃鸡蛋吧，就这个礼拜
Bought eggs instead, because the kids need at least to eat eggs
然后吃牛奶
At least this week, and they’ll have milk
我们就觉得回到了新疆农民的那种生活
It feels like we’re back on the farm in Xinjiang
我觉得很正常
But I’m OK with it / I’m used to that life
我们就着茶吃馕，有时候吃一些蔬菜
We have naan with our tea, sometimes some vegetables
大头菜、白菜、凉菜、土豆丝啊
Like turnips, cabbage, pickled cold vegetables, shredded potato
有时候觉得必须得有营养，就吃点鸡蛋，用鸡蛋炒菜
Eggs sometimes to get our nutrition, fried up with vegetables
今天做的手抓饭，因为昨天我买肉了
Today we had pilaf, because yesterday I bought meat
这个月还没付的水费就551块钱
But this month we owe 551 yuan RMB in utilities
然后孩子她妈昨天还问我，我说别担心
My wife brings it up, I say don’t worry about it
昨天晚上我借了1000块钱
Yesterday I borrowed 1,000 yuan
政府这一块儿，我有心理准备
Whatever the government decides to do, I’m ready
这些（被冻结的）钱没有了
We already lost our money when they froze our accounts
然后这个月底是我们的库尔班节
At the end of the month we have the Qurban Heyit holiday
孩子的妈，她会到新疆
My wife, she’ll go back to Xinjiang
她不太花钱嘛，在家里
She spends hardly any money when she’s back home
昨天她告诉我她还有4万块的私房钱
Yesterday she said she has 40,000 yuan RMB of her own money saved up
原来我给的，甚至有原来结婚的时候给的一些聘礼
Which came from me, or at least part of it, as her dowry
家里给的一些钱
Some from families / Money the family gave us?
然后我还有一些首饰，玉镯、玉石
And I have some jewellery, jade bracelets and stones
我还有车，所以我最近也准备把车卖掉
Also my car, which I’m getting ready to sell off
然后存到孩子的帐户，让我女儿上学用
I’ll put the money in my daughter’s account so she can go to school
我跟我女儿也谈了，她毕竟15岁嘛
I told her about this, she’s already 15 you know
而且她知道很多问题，比一般的孩子成熟
She knows what’s up, more mature than most 15-year-olds
我认为，一个民族在某一个阶段啊...
I think, for an ethnic group there comes a point...
并且这个国家的环境
And in this country with the way things are
因言论获罪，因为办了媒体获罪，因为说了真话获罪
Where you can go to jail for what you say, for running a website, for just speaking the truth
我愿意，我觉得是很荣耀的事情
Which for me would be an honor
而且真的那种时刻出现的话
As I’ve said before
我以前就说过，用我卑微的生命呼唤自由
To trade my humble life to call for freedom
这是幸福的事情，骄傲的事情
Gladly, I’d be proud to
所以这不应该是很痛苦的
So this probably won’t hurt much
短期，一听的时候可能紧张，我有过
The thought makes me nervous, but not for long
但可能只持续几分钟，甚至可能是几个小时
A few minutes, or at most a few hours
我唯一的牵挂就是母亲和孩子们
My only concern is for mother and the children
要是判死刑，我有心理准备
I’m even prepared for the possibility of a death sentence
这也许是我们民族的人要付出的代价吧
That just might be the price our people have to pay
我伊力哈木付出代价，虽然把我送进去
When I, Ilham Tohti, pay that price; then though I may have to go in
可能更能引起对我们民族的关注
Perhaps that will draw more attention to the plight of our people
可能引起更多的思考
People will think more about it
可能引起我们民族内部、还有外边的……
And perhaps more people will know about me
更何况很多汉人、很多外国的朋友、很多不同民族的朋友知道我
Uyghur, Han, foreign friends, people from other ethnic groups
而且知道我的理念
Will learn about me and my ideas
我不是暴力的，我没有任何违法的事情
Learn that I was not violent, hadn’t broken any law
只不过，我真的努力想发表一些声音
And that I only tried hard to make our voice heard
努力把我们的文化，我们的一些情况...
And to speak about our culture and our situation...
虽然我们做的不好
Although we’ve not been perfect
还有，我认为我不在的话“维吾尔在线”可能搞的更好
And, I think Uyghur Online could be even better run if I weren’t around
将来很多朋友，像你这样的朋友，我相信你们的良知
I believe in the conscience of my friends, friends like you
有人说我是维吾尔的良知，我不够格
Some say I’m the Uyghur people’s conscience, I think that overstates it / I can’t live up to that
我希望维吾尔人的良知在我身上体现
I hope to see the Uyghur people’s conscience in many others
像在很多人的身上体现
Not just in me.
我尽量成为有良知的人，对民族有良知的人
I’ve done my best to be a person of conscience, conscience toward the Uyghur people
要成为民族的良知是很骄傲的
That’s something to be proud of
我是很幸运的呀
And indeed I am lucky
我很骄傲，若我真的做到的话
And proud, if I can truly be that person
而且我也想，我有生之年要是能创造出某种理论或者模式
And I think, if with the time I have left, I can come up with ideas, with a model
维吾尔人能和平地争取自治的权利，一种抗争的模式
A way for Uyghurs to struggle peacefully for their right to autonomy, a mode of resistance
而且能够取得主流社会的认同，我觉得死了也很幸福的
And win acceptance from mainstream society, my death will have been worth that
我不喜欢暴力，我不会提倡暴力
I don’t like violence and I won’t advocate it
我并不认为汉民族是我们的敌人
And I definitely don’t think the Han are our enemy
哪怕是再这样，仇恨、仇杀发生的时候
Not even if racial hatred or killings should happen again
甚至发生民族屠杀的时候
Even if genocide were to happen
我也会呼吁：汉民族应该是我们的朋友
I would still say: the Han should be our friends!
我也会说出：我们应该成为朋友而不是敌人
I would say: We should be friends, not enemies
但是这个国家什么事都会发生
But in this country anything is possible
所以呢，你都会随时有准备
Which is why I’m already prepared
你没有想过的很惨的事情，也会发生在你的家庭，你的身上...
That the unthinkable could happen, to your family or yourself
我也有疑虑，当把我污名化的时候
I have doubts, like when they smear my name
比如，说我卖白粉、说我卖武器、说我组织过暴力
Say I peddled coke or sold weapons, or organized violence
我是东突恐怖分子，甚至说他去过拉登的基地
Or that I’m an East Turkestan terrorist, or even that I’ve trained with Bin Laden
他是拉登的人，他是美国的特务
That I’m agent of his, or America’s
他是热比亚的人，他是世维会在中国的什么……
Or that I work for Rebiya Kadeer, or I’m the World Uyghur Congress’ man in China, etc...
我不知道，反正各种的东西……
I don’t know, all sorts of stuff...
所以呢，很多东西无所谓，应该勇敢地面对
So whatever happens, we should face it with courage
当然呢，我是很希望到时候依法处理，这是一
Of course, first, I want to see things done according to law
二，很希望不要因为我而和汉民族之间发生仇恨的事情
And second, I don’t want to see any conflicts/tension? with the Han just because of me
当然呢，我也不希望这个时候没有维吾尔人的声音
And I hope when the time comes, we will hear Uyghur
汉人的声音，理性的声音
And Han people speak up, we will hear the voice of reason?
这是我对汉民族的期望，对维吾尔民族的期望
This is my hope for the Han people and for the Uyghurs
对两者的期望
My hope for both peoples
第三呢，我很希望，哪怕出现死亡的事情，把我埋在新疆
Third, I hope that if I do end up dead, I’m buried in Xinjiang
就是维吾尔人的家园
Which is home for Uyghurs
哪怕是冰山上，哪怕在沙漠或是路边
It could be on an iceberg, in the desert, even by the side of the road
我希望别让我的遗体留在新疆之外的地区
I just don’t want my body to be buried outside of Xinjiang
然后，最担心的就是孩子了
Lastly, I worry most about my children
怕他们遭到迫害，因为他们已经遭到了迫害
I’m afraid they’ll face persecution, more than they already have
他们没有学校上，旁听生
Forced to merely audit classes at schools that won’t take them as regular students
我怕到那时候旁听生都没有了
I’m afraid later they won’t even be able to audit classes
小孩儿会很茫然，不知道（怎么办）
My kids will be lost, and there won’t be anything I can do
我相信我女儿的良知，她很不一样
I believe in my daughter, there’s something special about her.
她受我影响很大，我相信她的良知
I have influenced her a lot/Much of what she knows she learned from me, I trust her conscience
她会成为一个有道德，爱自己的民族，爱人的人
I trust that she will grow into a moral person who loves her people, loves all people
我就担心她遭到迫害
But I worry people will go after her
还有一个担心，妻子现在又有孩子了
My other worry stems from my wife, who is now again pregnant
她没有工作，将来回新疆也不可能有工作
She’s unemployed now, and when she returns to Xinjiang she will not be able to find work
就是我将来的孩子……我妈妈也老了
My future child, and my mother who is getting on...
我就担心我家的两个孩子...
I’m worried about my two children...
但可能很残忍的，虽然很担心……明白吧？
It could all end tragically, in spite of my worries, you know what I mean?
但我觉得没有办法，需要付出的代价嘛，虽然你不愿意
But there’s nothing I can do. This is the price to be paid, whether you want it or not
但我现在想，我虽然有各种各样的信息，有各种预感
So I think, in spite of different things I hear, and all that I anticipate
我还是不敢相信
I refuse to believe it
这个国家，真的会把没有危害性的我
That this country might actually do such things to me
真弄成这样？有时候我也怀疑
Me who poses no threat. Sometimes I wonder
但我现在得到的信息、预感就是这样
But what I hear confirms what I suspect
然后呢我就考虑到，我要生存下去
And I think about how I’ll survive
生存然后才能给自己的民族做事儿
And by surviving, what I can do for my people
忍气吞声，是不是啊
So I bite my tongue, right?
所以现在就是这样，什么事儿都可能发生
So that’s what it’s like know: anything could happen
但有时候也想，不可能吧
But sometimes I think, there’s no way
不可能那么卑鄙，再卑鄙也不能那样吧
Surely, nothing that abhorrent could happen
还是一种，人家说我是幻想吧，对政府
Or, people say it’s just my wishful thinking
哎，它在改变呀有些东西……
That the government could ever change...
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